Oki loggie

[jordy]

Ow gewoon vet vrije massa, maar dan in het engels. Ik zat al te denken. Sorry.

[Yawgmoth]

600-800 cal per dag? Sorry ?

Mag je op je refeed wel 15.000 cal gaan eten wil je niet wegkwijnen

Wat is de redenatie achter die ultiem lage calorieen, ben wel benieuwd

Overigens nette power workout man

[The Phoenix]

600-800 cal per dag?

Jezus is dat niet erg weinig? Maar het zal dan wel bij het dieet horen maar dit lijkt wel op een crash dag.

[okidoki71]

600-800 cal per dag? Sorry ?

Mag je op je refeed wel 15.000 cal gaan eten wil je niet wegkwijnen

Wat is de redenatie achter die ultiem lage calorieen, ben wel benieuwd

Overigens nette power workout man

De redenatie erachter is om in zo'n kort mogelijke tijd zoveel en efficient mogelijk vet te verliezen, maximaal 6 weken om daarna een break te nemen van 2 weken.
Voedsel inname bestaat eiwitten en dan uit magere bronnen, KH's uit groentes (uitgezonderd de erwten,bonen, mais en wortelen) en EFA's vetten.
Verder multivitamine's, magnesium, calcium als supps.

Stukje uit het boek:

Where does the energy come from?
So where does that energy come from? At the lowest level of cellular function, the only form of energy that your cells can use directly is something called adenosine triphosphate (ATP). I doubt that factoid is very helpful to readers except perhaps as the answer to a Trivial Pursuit or game show question. If you happen to sit around having polite conversation about ATP, please send me an email: I want to hang out with you.
Of more use to us, the body generates ATP from the burning (oxidation or combustion to use a more sciency term) of either glucose (from carbohydrate) or fatty acids (from fats). Under specific circumstances protein can be used to produce ATP, either directly or via the conversion to either glucose or fat (usually protein is converted to glucose to be used for fuel). I’ll come back to this below.
With a few exceptions that I’ll talk about in a second, every tissue in your body can use either carbohydrate or fat for fuel. What determines which they use? For the most part, it’s the availability of carbohydrates: when carbs are available (because you’re eating plenty of them), those tissues will use carbohydrates, in the form of glucose, for fuel. When carbs are not available (because you’re restricting them), the body will switch to using fat for fuel. That fat can either come from your diet or from the fat stored on your butt or stomach. This has another implication that is often forgotten in weight/fat reduction programs: when you eat more carbohydrates, your body uses less fat for energy; when you eat less carbohydrates, your body uses more fat for energy.
So what about those exceptions? A few tissues in your body such as the brain/central nervous system and one or two others can’t use fatty acids for fuel; they can only use glucose. The brain is the main one I want to talk about here. It’s usually (and incorrectly) stated that the brain can only use glucose for fuel, and this is true if you only consider glucose, amino acids, and fat as potential fuel sources. But this leaves out a fourth, extremely important, fuel source: ketones (also known as ketone bodies).
Ketones are made from the breakdown of fat in the liver and function as a fat-derived fuel for the brain during periods of starvation/carbohydrate restriction.
I’ll talk about starvation in more detail in a second but I want to mention that, after a few weeks in ketosis (a state where ketones build up in the bloodstream such that fuels such as the brain start using them for energy), the brain can derive 75% of its total energy from ketone metabolism. The other 25% comes from glucose.

So aren’t carbohydrates essential?

At this point you may be slightly confused about the role of carbohydrates in the diet. In the last chapter, I stated that carbohydrates weren’t an essential nutrient and above I mentioned that a few tissues can only use glucose and that even the brain gets about 25% of its total fuel requirements from glucose after adaptation to ketosis. So if those tissues still require glucose for energy, you may be wondering how carbohydrates aren’t essential in the diet. Remember from the last chapter what the definition of an essential nutrient is: It is required for functioning andit can’t be made by the body.

The second criterion is the reason that dietary carbohydrate is not an essential nutrient: the body is able to make as much glucose as the brain and the few other tissues need on a day to day basis. I should mention that the body is not able to provide sufficient carbohydrate to fuel high intensity exercise (think sprinting or weight training) and carbs might be considered conditionally essential for individuals who want to do that.
So how is the glucose made? The answer is a biochemical process with the unwieldy name of gluconeogenesis, which simply means the making of new glucose (primarily in the liver). When necessary, the body can make glucose out of a number of other substances including glycerol (which comes from fat metabolism), lactate and pyruvate (which comes from carbohydrate metabolism), and certain amino acids (from protein).
Which brings me back around to the topic of protein as a fuel source for the body. Readers may have seen that ‘carbohydrates spare protein’ and this is part of the basis for that claim: when carbohydrates are being eaten in sufficient quantities, the body has no need to break down protein for fuel. By extension, when carbohydrates are being restricted for whatever reason, some proportion of protein will be used to make glucose, leaving less to be used for building blocks. This has an important implication for dieting, namely that protein requirements go up when you’re restricting either calories or carbohydrates.

What about starvation?

Now seems like as good of a time to talk about starvation, the consumption of zero food. I
should mention that therapeutic starvation (as it was called) was tried during the middle of the 20th century for weight loss, frequently causing rather rapid losses of weight. But it had an unfortunate problem, which I’m going to address below. For now, let’s look at starvation and what happens. So let’s say you stop eating anything and look at what happens (a much more detailed examination of this and many other topics can be found in my first book The Ketogenic Diet). Over the first few hours of starvation, blood glucose and insulin levels both drop. This signals the body to break down glycogen (stored carbohydrate) in the liver to release it into the bloodstream. As well, the body starts mobilizing fat from fat cells to use for fuel. After 12-18 hours or so (faster if you exercise), liver glycogen is emptied. At this point blood glucose will drop to low-normal levels and stay there. Blood fatty acids have increased significantly.

After a day or so, most cells in the body, with a few exceptions, are using fatty acids for fuel. Obese individuals may derive over 90% of their total fuel requirements from fat while leaner individuals may only derive about 75% of the total from fat. So far so good, right, the body is mobilizing and utilizing an absolute ton of fatty acids for fuel: 90% of your total energy expenditure if you’re fat and 75% if you’re lean (I’ll talk about what fat and lean is in another chapter). There must be a drawback and here it is: the few tissues that require glucose are getting it via gluconeogenesis in the liver. As above, gluconeogenesis occurs from glycerol, lactate, pyruvate and amino acids. Now, if the person who is starving isn’t eating any protein, where are those amino acids going to have to come from? That’s right, from the protein that is already in the body. But recall from last chapter that there really isn’t a store of protein in the body, unless you count muscles and organs. Which means that, during total starvation, the body has to break down protein tissues to provide amino acids to make glucose. The body starts eating its own lean body mass to make glucose to fuel certain tissues. This is bad. Now, as fatty acids start to accumulate and be burned in the liver, ketones will start to be produced. Initially, for reasons totally unimportant to this book, the muscle will use the majority of ketones that are produced. As I mentioned above, after a few weeks, the brain will adapt so that it is using ketones and deriving most of its fuel from them; the small remainder comes from the glucose being produced via gluconeogenesis.

Now, the adaptation to ketosis occurs for a profoundly important reason. Once again, much of the glucose produced in the body is from amino acids which are coming from the protein in muscle (and to a lesser degree, organs). If such a breakdown continued in the long term, so much muscle would be lost that the individual who was starving would be unable to move. Quite in fact, the loss of too much lean body mass (muscle and organs) causes death. The shift to using ketones decreases the need to break down body protein to make glucose. As I mentioned above, therapeutic starvation was often used in the cases where rapid weight loss was needed. And while it did generate rather high levels of weight and fat loss, it had as a problem the loss of excessive body protein. So researchers decided to find way to try and generate similar levels of weight/fat loss while sparing LBM.

A history lesson: From therapeutic starvation to the PSMF

As I mentioned in the previous chapter, therapeutic starvation for weight loss was great in terms of the weight/fat loss that it generated but had one huge problem associated with it: the loss of too much LBM. This sent researchers looking for a solution. Early studies tried giving small amounts of either carbohydrates or fats for energy. In the short term, at least, carbs did have some protein sparing effect. In the long-term, carbs were actually detrimental as they prevented the development and adaptation to ketosis. Fat didn’t really have an effect either way except that it allowed ketosis to develop (because carbs weren’t being eaten) so that the adaptations could take place. Finally, someone got the bright idea to try just giving small amounts of proteins to see if this would allow all of the ‘benefits’ of starvation without the large loss of body protein that was occurring.
Voila, this worked and folks realize that the most protein sparing nutrient of all is protein. Err, duh. By providing protein intake, the liver was now using dietary protein instead of body protein to make glucose, sparing the loss of LBM that had been occurring. This approach was called a protein sparing modified fast or PSMF.
Over the next few years, more studies were done examining a number of other variables, did adding carbs or fat to the dietary protein spare LBM, how much protein was needed to more or less completely eliminate the loss of body protein. Basically the goal was to find out what combination of nutrients would allow the least number of calories to be consumed while allowing the maximum rate of fat/weight loss.
After a good deal of experimentation, it was found that a protein intake of 1-1.5 grams of protein per kilogram of ideal bodyweight (IBW, this was used as a rough estimate of LBM although we’ll be more technical about it) prevented the loss of body protein. For the non-metrically inclined, this works out to about 0.5-0.7 grams of protein per pound or so. So an individual with 150 pound of lean body mass would consume about 105 grams of protein (about 420 calories) and not much else beyond some vegetables, a lot of water, and a vitamin/mineral supplement. As described in the first chapter, this generated fat losses in the realm of .5-0.75 pounds per day and weight losses that were much higher due to water loss.

Bron: Lyle Mcdonald, "Rapid fat Loss"

[okidoki71]

Dus mijn plan is als volg:

Trainingschema

• Maandag en dinsdag - Depletiontraining 1 x fullbody High rep
• Woensdag -Rust
• Donderdag -Avond Tensiontraining
• Vrijdag - Rust
• Zaterdag - Power workout
• Zondag - Rust

Voedselschema

• Maandag, dinsdag en woensdag - 800 Kcal IF style
• Donderdag - Overdag 500 kcal, avond refeeden
• Vrijdag - Refeed
• Zaterdag - op onderhoud
• zondag - 20% onder onderhoud, IF style

Even aangepast

[Kevster]

Hmm. Dat boekje staat als volgende op mijn lijst.

[dynobet]

ik heb rapid fatloss ook gelezen, en ik wil even zeggen:

ga of ud2 doen, of rapid fatloss, en ga niet zelf sleutelen en iets nieuws proberen te maken.

ik quote even:

You should keep up your training program but the total volume and frequency of your training should be cut way back; you simply won’t have the recovery capacity on so few calories. Studies routinely show that both volume (number of sets, amount of aerobic training done) and frequency (days/week) can be cut back significantly (by up to 2/3rds) as long as intensity (weight on the bar, speed) is maintained. Given those parameters, performance can be maintained for many weeks. If you’re as overtrained as most athletes, cutting back on your training during a crash diet will act as a minitaper,
you might even show some improvement. But don’t hold your breath.
Basically, I’d say cut weight training back to maybe once every 3-4 days (or twice a week) or so, doing a full body workout with a few heavy sets per bodypart in the 6-8 repetition range. This will give you the best strength and LBM maintenance on this diet.

als ik deze aanbevelingen lees, dan zou 2x per week een tensionworkout genoeg zijn. Geen power workout, geen wekelijkse carbload. wat je nu probeert is te trainen als up ud2, en te cutten als in rapid fatloss, en dat werkt niet naar mijn mening.

ik zou je voorstel eens posten op het forum van lyle bodyrecomposition, en ik weet zeker dat hij je dit af gaat raden. (net als hij dat gedaan heeft bij andere die dit voorstelden.)

[Kevster]

Is lyle ook zelf actief op dat forum?

[koenv91]

ik zag dat je pwo ook veel kh bevat.
ik heb een pwo die geen kh bevat mischien is dat wat voor je?
no synthesize

[okidoki71]

ik heb rapid fatloss ook gelezen, en ik wil even zeggen:

ga of ud2 doen, of rapid fatloss, en ga niet zelf sleutelen en iets nieuws proberen te maken.

ik quote even:

You should keep up your training program but the total volume and frequency of your training should be cut way back; you simply won’t have the recovery capacity on so few calories. Studies routinely show that both volume (number of sets, amount of aerobic training done) and frequency (days/week) can be cut back significantly (by up to 2/3rds) as long as intensity (weight on the bar, speed) is maintained. Given those parameters, performance can be maintained for many weeks. If you’re as overtrained as most athletes, cutting back on your training during a crash diet will act as a minitaper,
you might even show some improvement. But don’t hold your breath.
Basically, I’d say cut weight training back to maybe once every 3-4 days (or twice a week) or so, doing a full body workout with a few heavy sets per bodypart in the 6-8 repetition range. This will give you the best strength and LBM maintenance on this diet.

als ik deze aanbevelingen lees, dan zou 2x per week een tensionworkout genoeg zijn. Geen power workout, geen wekelijkse carbload. wat je nu probeert is te trainen als up ud2, en te cutten als in rapid fatloss, en dat werkt niet naar mijn mening.

ik zou je voorstel eens posten op het forum van lyle bodyrecomposition, en ik weet zeker dat hij je dit af gaat raden. (net als hij dat gedaan heeft bij andere die dit voorstelden.)

Gaat prima, beide dieeten hebben refeeds, en wat Lyle ook aangeeft is dat iedere catagorie ook anders om moet gaan met het dieet, zowel UD2 als Rapid fat Loss, ik val in catagorie 2, jij in catagorie 1.


Hier een stukje uit zijn boek:

Structured refeeds
The next ‘level’ up from free meals are structured refeeds, basically deliberate periods of highcarbohydrate overfeeding that is performed from anywhere from 5 hours (at the shortest) to one day (probably the average) up to three days (for example, my Ultimate Diet 2.0). Although a structured refeed has psychological benefits similar to the free meals, it has additional physiological benefits that the free meal lacks.
One of these is the refilling of muscle glycogen (carbohydrate stored within the muscle) which is important for individuals involved in high-intensity exercise performance. Structured refeeds also turn off diet induced catabolism (roughly: tissue breakdown), helping to spare LBM loss. Done properly, structured refeeds can be used to rebuild muscle lost on a diet. Again, see my Ultimate Diet 2.0.
Finally, deliberately overeating carbohydrates helps to normalize most, if not all, of the hormones I talked about back in the chapter on metabolic slowdown: leptin, ghrelin, insulin, etc. I should mention that it is somewhat debatable whether short refeeds (1 day or less) have much of an impact on metabolic rate or things of that nature although a recent study (in rats, unfortunately) suggests that it does help.
So how does one do a structured refeed? Unfortunately, it depends on a lot of variables that I don’t want to get into huge detail here (again, A Guide to Flexible Dieting, goes into far more detail on the topic). I will say this, you should try to consume mainly carbohydrates during the refeed, while keeping dietary fat intake low to moderate (I’d say no more than about 50 grams of fat per day, about 4 tablespoons). Since you’re only eating a small amount of fat on the extreme diet in the first place, you simply need to add 3-4 tbsp (peanut butter anyone?) to your normal fat intake.
As far as carbohydrates, it’s best to avoid too much sucrose (table sugar) or fructose (fruit sugar).
You can have some (about 100 grams of sucrose of 50 grams of fructose maximum), just don’t make it the totality of your intake. All starches, moderate amounts of fruit (2-3 pieces total), and even some junk food (again, not too much) is fair game. Doing a structured refeed on a crash diet really isn’t that hard, just stick with your normal protein plus vegetables plus essential fatty acid intake and add a ton of carbohydrates and a small amount of dietary fat.
The big ‘it depends’ is amount, how much to eat during a structured refeed. My UD2 used a 3 day refeed comprised of 12-16 grams of carbs per kilogram (about 5-6 grams per pound) on the first day, about half of that (2-3 g/lb) on the second day, and about half (1-1.5 g/lb) of that on the third day.
But that was a specific diet for a very specific group (lean athletes who were completely glycogen depleted going into the refeed). A UD2 style refeed is actually what I’d suggest for dieters in category 1 at the end of the diet but would be too much for the other two categories. I’ll mention now that category 3 dieters don’t get a structured refeed as they simply don’t need it.
Diet category 2 is the big question mark. I’d say eat as much as you can get away with, without regaining significant bodyfat. This may range from slightly below maintenance calories up to 500-1000 calories (or more) over maintenance (chapters 11-15 deal with the concept of maintenance eating). Do be forewarned that bodyweight can spike significantly after a structured refeed, from glycogen and water storage. 5-10 pounds over one day is not uncommon (it’s the same 5-10 lbs you dropped right off the bat rapidly). As with the free meal, the water weight drops back off within a couple of days of returning ot the crash diet.

Bron: Lyle McDonald "Rapid fat Loss"



Ik ga niet zo diep in depletion training als bij UD2 want daar zorgt het lage kcalinname van het Rapid fat Loss wel voor, en door de refeed die overigens niet meer zo hevig zal zijn als in UD2, kan ik nog wel een power workout inlassen om mijn LBM te behouden.

Vandaar het gesleutel aangepast naar mijn individualisme, ik verwacht hiermee betere en snellere resultaten te boeken als voorheen.

Is lyle ook zelf actief op dat forum?

Yep, en hij antwoord ook nog eens redelijk snel.

ik zag dat je pwo ook veel kh bevat.
ik heb een pwo die geen kh bevat mischien is dat wat voor je?
no synthesize

pwo na de tension workout moet juist hoog in KH zitten, dat is juist de essentie ervan, reloaden, je spieren zijn leeg en moeten zo snel mogelijk herladen worden.....dat alleen al is zo'n 500gr aan Koolhydraatjes.

[okidoki71]

Gisteren eerste dag nieuwe stijl: Rapid fat loss/ud2.0/IF



18:00

• 350 gr kipfilet (gewicht na het grillen)
• 500 gr Gegrilde courgettes

21:00

• 4 tomaten + 1/2 komkommer
• 250 gr tonijn

Totale kcal inname : 802 K/E/V : 10 / 150 / 18

Supps: ECAA's , 6 visolie caps , multi vit. , biergist

Depletion training: 24 setjes, laag gewicht 15 reps per set


Wonderbaarlijk genoeg voel ik mij niet zwak, wel komt de honger in golven opzetten en was ik ook blij om om 18:00 te kunnen gaan eten, en dan smaakt alles wel. Verder heb ik wel een soort van zwavelachtige smaak in de mond, maar volgens Lyle is dat normaal, het betekent dat m'n lichaam vet aan het verbranden is.
M'n lichaam is nu in absolute ketose, wat wil je ook met maar 10 kh's in je maag.....so far so good.

[okidoki71]

Gisteren weer 800 kcall gegeten, ook de eerste maal om 18:00 uur 'savonds en de tweede om 21:00 uur, ik heb geen Depletion training gedaan en ik overweeg ook om deze trainingen er uit te gooien.
Waarschijnlijk dat ik dan op donderdag, voor de refeed, een depletion training inlas en dan op de zaterdag ipv een power workout, een Tension workout uitvoer. De rest van de week beter geen training of cardio, het is te zwaar en niet verstandig.

Gisteren was het redelijk te doen, voelde mij bij vlagen wat zwakjes, slecht kunnen concentreren, prikkelbaar en geheugen liet me soms in de steek.
Verder de hele dag met een vieze smaak in de mond, ik kreeg het ook niet weg met tanden poetsen, dus veel water drinken is het enige wat een beetje helpt. Ik ben wel goed in slaap gevallen, geen honger gelukkig, maar dat is ook de reden waarom ik IF ben gaan doen, omdat het juist om zo weinig kcals gaat, en ik heb liever overdag honger als honger hebben voor het slapen gaan.

Vandaag, de derde dag in ketose, zit ik nog steeds met een vieze smaak in de mond, erger nog dan de 2 dagen ervoor, ik was om 4 uur wakker, kon niet meer slapen van de honger en ben er toen maar uit gegaan, ik probeer vandaag wel wat slaap bij te pakken.
Voel me redelijk zwak, heb nergens zin in, het enigste wat door m'n hoofd spookt is morgen, de refeed, maar die begint pas morgenavond.
Oja, de verwarming staat nu op 22 graden en ik heb het nog steeds koud, iets waar ik normaal gesproken nooit last van had.

Ik moet zeggen dat dit toch een klote dieet is, ik bedoel, 800 kcal. is 1 ding, maar de in en verdeling ervan is een tweede. Max. 10 grammekes aan koolhydraten en 15 gr aan vetten, maar goed, ik heb een doel en dat doel ga ik bereiken en ik weet dat als ik dit tot een goed einde breng dat ik in staat ben tot het uiterste te gaan, tot het diepste gaatje.......

tot zover.....

[laurann]

Klinkt niet echt geweldig.
Maar volhouden je zegt het zelf al dan weet je dat je alles aankan.

[dynobet]

ik hoop serieus dat je weet waar je mee bezig bent. ik heb het gevoel dat je teveel spiermassa gaat verliezen in de catabolische fase, en dat je dat bij lange na niet goed kan maken in de anabolische fase. wat uiteindelijk zul lijden tot spier en kracht verlies.

je maakt ook een gigantische fout qua eiwit inname. ik zal iets concreter zijn: je bent toch catogorie 2 bij rapid fatloss?? dan moet je als krachtsporter per lbs lichaamsgewicht minimaal 1.25g eiwitten nuttigen. je lean body mass is 85 kilo. je lbm in lbs uitgedrukt is 189 lbs lean body mass. 189x1.25 = 236g eiwitten. daar zit je ruim 80g onder. (pagina 39 rapid fatloss handbook kun je het nalezen)

komop... 150g eiwitten is echt weinig. zeker als je 10g carbs neemt, dan is de hoeveelheid eiwitten die wordt omgezet naar glycose nog veel groter. Je zult zelfs als je volgens rapidfatloss style wil eten meet moeten eten.

iets als 240g eiwitten, 20g carbs, 20g vet (waarvan 10g visolie) lijkt mij het absolute minimum wat verantwoords is in jouw situatie. en dan zit je toch al snel aan 1220 kcal, en das toch even 50% meer als je nu eet.

[okidoki71]

ik hoop serieus dat je weet waar je mee bezig bent. ik heb het gevoel dat je teveel spiermassa gaat verliezen in de catabolische fase, en dat je dat bij lange na niet goed kan maken in de anabolische fase. wat uiteindelijk zul lijden tot spier en kracht verlies.

je maakt ook een gigantische fout qua eiwit inname. ik zal iets concreter zijn: je bent toch catogorie 2 bij rapid fatloss?? dan moet je als krachtsporter per lbs lichaamsgewicht minimaal 1.25g eiwitten nuttigen. je lean body mass is 85 kilo. je lbm in lbs uitgedrukt is 189 lbs lean body mass. 189x1.25 = 236g eiwitten. daar zit je ruim 80g onder. (pagina 39 rapid fatloss handbook kun je het nalezen)

komop... 150g eiwitten is echt weinig. zeker als je 10g carbs neemt, dan is de hoeveelheid eiwitten die wordt omgezet naar glycose nog veel groter. Je zult zelfs als je volgens rapidfatloss style wil eten meet moeten eten.

iets als 240g eiwitten, 20g carbs, 20g vet (waarvan 10g visolie) lijkt mij het absolute minimum wat verantwoords is in jouw situatie. en dan zit je toch al snel aan 1220 kcal, en das toch even 50% meer als je nu eet.

Hey Dyno, goed van je dat je meedenkt

Of ik veel spiermassa ga verliezen weet ik niet, ik hoop het niet....Ik probeer zoveel mogelijk tegen te gaan om voldoende vitamine c, glutamine en ecaa's te slikken, het is uitproberen en goed naar mijn lichaam te luisteren, mocht het te hard gaan, dan ga ik onherroepelijk over naar een reguliere cut.


Dat van de eiwitten klopt wat je zegt, alleen omdat ik tijdens de low kcal dagen geen trainingen ga doen en dus inactief kan het volgens Lyle wel degelijk. Namelijk 0.9 gr eiwit per pond LBM = in mijn situatie 153 gr.
Als het goed is moet dit genoeg zijn spierafbraak te voorkomen, iig zo veel mogelijk. Maar nogmaals, het is tot het uiterste gaan en uitproberen.

Ik ben alleen benieuwd hoe mijn lichaam gaat reageren tijdens het refeeden en hoe het uiteraard met de training van zaterdag gaat.


keep u posted.....