Timing insuline en sth

**bruce** · 12-09-2003, 18:14

heb zelf geen ervaring met sth. maar kan wel zeggen dat het niet uitmaakt waarover je informatie leest, altijd heb je diverse uitleg. daarom zou ik maar een redelijk aannemelijke nemen en het daarbij houden.
overigens geen goede zaak als je alleen begeleiding hebt uit boeken. bij dit soort zaken heb je een ervaren mannetje nodig wat je bijstaat.

**Curiosio** · 12-09-2003, 18:16

Eens. Zeker wat betreft insuline. De hoeveelheden zijn voor iedereen anders en afhankelijk van je inname koolhydraten.
Een teveel kan leiden tot coma of erger..

Greets...

**rex** · 12-09-2003, 21:53

Ik heb ruime ervaring met het gebruik van insuline en ben mij bewust van de risico's.
Zelfeducatie lijkt mij nooit een slechte zaak. In het sportschoolcircuit doet het gros maar "wat zij hebben gehoord". Probeer zoveel mogelijk kennis te vergaren, zou ik zeggen.
Maar dit was mijn punt niet. Ik wil graag weten hoe ik het maximale rendement uit STH halen kan. Met mijn huidige wijze van gebruik boek ik goede resultaten maar mogelijk kan ik dit nog verder optimaliseren. Graag opinies hoe met STH en insuline het grootste anabole effect bereikt kan worden.

**Curiosio** · 13-09-2003, 07:10

Daar kan ik je niet mee helpen maar ik dacht dat Jack ervaring had?

Greets...

**Jack** · 13-09-2003, 11:09

sth en insuline is de combi voor massa (uiteraard ook flinki wat AS erbij )

het maakt niet uit of je de GH een uur na je insuline zet.
het gaat erom dat je lichaam minder insuline gevoelig is met GH dus is het zaak extra insuline bij te zetten.

het beste is 's morgens bij het opstaan een injectie GH + slin
en dan na de training een injectie slin. en dan net voor het op bed gaan weer een keer GH.

**Myobolix** · 14-09-2003, 14:23

Growth Hormone and Insulin
Both of these hormones can seriously benefit a bodybuilding drug regimen. Growth hormone and insulin can be combined to produce a very powerful mass cycle (providing they are stacked with a strong steroid base). Growth hormone on its own is very good at promoting fat loss. Insulin can be used for both dieting and mass gaining as has been discussed in previous issues of anabolic extreme.

If you intend to use Growth Hormone along with insulin, then there are few interactions of which you should be aware. Growth Hormone and Insulin are, to some degree, antagonists. High levels of insulin blunt natural production of growth hormone. However, when you are combining exogenous drugs, this is less of a concern. Insulin also affects T3 levels, so cytomel becomes a very useful addition.

The minimum amount of growth hormone to use in a mass cycle is 6 IU's per day for at least 8 weeks. Insulin dosages should be between 15-30 IU's per day. Growth hormone and insulin should never be taken at the same time. Administer growth hormone either 1 hour before or 2 hours (if using Humalog insulin, otherwise wait until the insulin is out of your system) after the insulin injection. Taking these drugs at the same time is counterproductive. The addition of 25 mcg of cytomel is ideal for this stack.

If you are trying to diet, growth hormone can be very helpful. A lower dosage might be acceptable, but generally 2-4 IUs of GH are going to be required to see any appreciable lipolytic effect. Insulin should only be used as part of a ketogenic diet (to descend into ketosis) or post workout, combined with ultra low fat.

**rex** · 14-09-2003, 22:37

Interessant deze 2 tegengestelde meningen. Jack zegt dat sth en insuline samen genomen kunnen worden terwijl Myobolix stelt dat zij nooit beiden in hetzelfde "timeframe" genomen mogen worden.
Dit is een tegenstelling die ik veel tegenkom. Om dit te illustreren hierbij 2 (weldoordachte) opinies.

Author L. Rea (die wel de nieuwe Dan Duchaine wordt genoemd) deelt de mening van Jack en meent dat sth zonder de aanwezigheid van insuline geen anabool effect zal hebben:

"It seems reasonably certain that almost every hard-core and serious athlete is aware of the paramount importance of testosterone and growth hormone (GH) for actualizing gains in lean mass tissue. Unfortunately it seems that not as many are aware of insulin's powerful and symbiotic anabolic effects. This is especially so in regards to its synergistic role in producing one of the body's most potent growth factors called IGF-1 (Insulin-like Growth Factor-1).
Any enhanced athlete could employ the best coaches and training protocols while utilizing polypharmacology yet realize only a fraction of their muscle mass potential unless they realize the facts about interaction between GH, insulin and IGF-1.
The amount of hepatic and site specific IGF-1 the body secretes is dependent upon insulin management.
The ratio and interaction between GH, insulin and IGF-1 is paramount for correct and maximum protein and glucose metabolism.
Many do not realize that IGF-1 is so powerful that it has even been documented to reverse age related metabolic inhibitors such as insulin resistance and muscle loss while improving muscular contractile force.
Hepatic and tissue specific IGF-1 formation is optimized by a more steady tide effect circulatory exchange/interaction between GH and insulin.
Intense training increases testosterone, GH and IGF levels. However it also decreases insulin levels and increases cortisol (the catabolic muscle breakdown hormone)
Whenever insulin is low the life of GH-IGF secretion is short lived.
Heavy, eccentric weight training causes the highest increases in circulating bioactive IGF-1.
GH release via sleep, supplements or exogenous administration is useless without sufficient circulating insulin and blood amino acids.
Huh?
Human secretion of GH occurs from the pituitary gland (which is found at the base of the brain). Some travels the vascular system to muscle and bone tissue resulting in direct initiation of anabolism through alternate growth factor/somatomedin formation (IGF-1&2 are formed due to cascade responses). Some travels to the liver where it interacts with insulin and other factors to form hepatic introduced circulatory growth
factors/somatomedins.
Once in circulation both IGF-I and IGF-2 have very short lives. IGF-II is predominantly responsible for nerve growth. IGF-I exerts most of its profound growth effects on muscle. Unless an individual actuates both insulin and IGF circulating in the correct amounts, muscle growth will be about zero.
Consider the Obvious…
It was from research performed on diabetics that initially provided the earlier examples. Insulin-dependant diabetics have chronic low IGFlevels both circulatory and site-specific. They also commonly have a very bad time when attempting to increase muscle mass. Realize that diabetes is a disease of inconsistent, ineffective insulin secretion by the pancreas. A diabetic's circulatory insulin level is always going up and down depending on how much they administer and what they eat…and always mistimed to GH release. It's almost impossible to keep constant during the right periods thus resulting in little IGF formation.

Intense Training and local IGF-1 response…

Previous research has shown conflicting results with regard to IGF-1 secretion and exercise of various types. However, recent research has demonstrated that that a large amount of IGF-1 is secreted within the first 12 minutes of intense training protocols.
Properly designed current research also has shown that muscle tissue employed in weight training produced a great deal more bioactive IGF-1 (locally) and that IGF-1 circulates in a sort of "system" consisting predominantly of a group of six binding proteins, free IGF-1 and an acid-labile unit. Did you know that these six binding proteins in blood and muscle alike regulate the biological activity (usability) of IGF-1?
(Say what?)
The latest body of research on IGF-1 validates that intense weight training induces a signal within muscle causes a rearranging effect to the ratio of these binding proteins that results in increased activity and availability of IGF-1. This appears to be essential to the growth and repair process…or Action/Reaction Factors.
In fact, he total amount of IGF-1 secreted by any means is not as important as the rearrangement of the IGF-1 binding protein ratio itself. Heavy resistance training triggers this rearrangement quite nicely of course as it is one of the strongest adaptive response actions there is. By the way, big issue here, this modulation of the IGF-1 binding proteins to create active IGF-1 is not fully realized until six to 12 hours after training. Hmmmm, and this just happens to be about the
same time that peak muscle protein synthesis rates occur. Are you starting to see the timing and connection?

So What have we (Hopefully) learned so far?

Without proper timing of the insulin supply, kept within a narrow physiological range, GH levels are quickly destroyed and the active-life of IGF-I is sadly short lived. Precisely prolonged circulatory insulin levels prolong the active life of IGF and GH secretion so their powerful effects on muscle likely last longer.
Even though there is a great deal of IGF-1 present a maximum growth stimulus is require to alter the binding proteins ratio as a means of optimizing the amount of bio-active IGF-1.
Without proper timing of insulin and GH introduction IGF formation is reduced or lost and we look like a weenie-boy.

"Hogg" van Meso-Rx heeft een heel andere stelling. Hij meent, net als Myobolix, dat de werkingsduur van sth en insuline elkaar juist niet moeten overlappen:

"Judging by some of the email I receive - you that are on GH and/or SLIN cycles may be injuring your bodies w/o knowing it. Please understand this before you administer these drugs.
I will say it again: Injecting growth hormone DOES NOT LOWER insulin levels. Upon injecting HGH, HGH antagonizes insulin at receptor sites. In response, your pancreas produces more insulin since injected HGH causes decreased insulin sensitivity, NOT LOWER CIRCULATING LEVELS OF INSULIN. Your pancreas produces MORE insulin to maintain "normal" levels in the body in response to large HGH injections. Then, 3 hours after your injection of HGH, HGH is no longer there to antagonize insulin at receptor sites because the HGH has been metabolized by your liver.
Once the insulin receptors are free, your blood sugar plummets like a rock. The large amount of insulin secreted is now COMPLETELY FREE to attach to once antagonized receptors and the result is high insulin levels, no longer antagonized at receptor sites, which start sucking up glucose. Blood Glucose keeps droping until you get a huge craving for carbohydrates. This occurs 3-5 hours post GH injection.
Now, GH injections must be timed, dosed, and administered carefully or you run into danger of permanently damaging your beta-cells, the cells that produce insulin in your pancreas. High levels of lipids (which HGH releases from fat cells) and high levels of insulin, can damage your beta cells.
Simply put, your pancreas slowly becomes burned out from having to produce so much insulin in response to HGH injections.
The beta-cells produce too much insulin because GH is antagonizing insulin at receptor sites, causing your pancreas to produce more insulin to maintain "normal" levels in your body. If GH is used long enough (by itself w/o exogenous insulin) your pancreas will start to burn out. This can develop into diabetes.
This is why, although a GH/SLIN cycle is very dangerous, using the two in a cycle instead of just running a GH only cycle - gives your pancreas much needed rest. It doesn't run the risk of beta-cell burnout by constantly having to produce more insulin to offset GH's antagonistic effect on insulin receptor sites.
For example, say you inject GH @ 4 iu 2X daily. Your pancreas will produce more insulin. If you use Humulin-R also 2X daily, spaced out properly, your pancreas gets much needed rest during this time. Otherwise, the beta-cells producing insulin in the pancreas may become burned out, and there you have it - DIABETES. You that want to inject GH for 6 months better think it over. If there is a history of Diabetes in your family re-consider it. Hope this clarifies things a little."

Zo ! Wie vertelt mij wie er gelijk heeft ? Of is dit een tegenstelling tussen "gevaarlijk maar effectief" en "veilig maar met minder rendement" ?

**Jack** · 15-09-2003, 08:40

dat stukje van myobolix is al gedeeltelijk achterhaald, want daar zeggen ze dat T3 nodig is bij STH en insuline, terwijl sinds kort gebleken is dat dat helemaal niet nodig is.
En de mensen die ik ken en die STH gebruiken doen het ongeveer tegelijk met de slin.

**Jack** · 15-09-2003, 08:42

ik nam overigens 's morgens direct de STH, en dan na een half uur de insuline. na de training ' s avonds heb ik het tegelijk genomen, maar ook een tijdje alleen de slin na de training en dan voor bedtijd de STH.

**rex** · 15-09-2003, 17:27

Ik vraag me ook af of het wel nodig is T3 te combineren met STH. Door langdurig gebruik van STH zou de schildklier trager gaan werken; de T3 zou dan nodig zijn om het evenwicht weer te herstellen. Het vetverbrandende effect van STH houdt echter ook bij langdurig gebruik aan. Dit is in tegenspraak met het idee dat de productie van schildklierhormonen af zou nemen.

**john** · 15-09-2003, 21:26

Het is het beste om het niet in hetzelfde time frame te laten vallen inderdaad.
Ik neem zelf mn sth avonds voor het slapen gaan in en de insuline die ik smorgens en avonds gebruik is dan al uitgewerkt.....

Timing insuline en sth